One of the most influential voices in contemporary worship music, John Mark McMillan, hailing from North Carolina, has captivated audiences with his raw and honest songwriting. His breakthrough album, The Medicine, released several impactful singles including “Skeleton Bones” and “Death in His Grave.” However, it’s his earlier song, “How He Loves,” that has truly resonated globally, becoming a staple in church worship services worldwide.
Penned in the aftermath of his friend Stephen’s tragic passing, “How He Loves” is a profound exploration of God’s overwhelming love amidst human brokenness. This powerful anthem has been embraced and covered by prominent artists such as David Crowder, Kim Walker, Todd Agnew, and Flyleaf. To understand the genesis of this impactful song, you can watch McMillan himself share the story behind “How He Loves” in this video.
Recently, Biola Magazine had the opportunity to interview John Mark McMillan from his home in Charlotte, N.C. In this insightful conversation, McMillan delves into his musical journey, his artistic mission, and his perspectives on the contemporary worship music scene, including the story and impact of what some might refer to as the “Kiss Song” due to its evocative and debated lyric.
Thank you for your time, John Mark. Your insights are highly valued, especially given the success of your recent album. Congratulations!
John Mark McMillan at Biola University, discussing worship music and songwriting
Thank you. To be honest, I wasn’t quite sure what to expect with this re-release. There’s always that question of whether your core audience will rally behind it again, but they really have. It’s been a genuinely encouraging start.
For someone just discovering your music, how would you describe The Medicine? Do you see your work fitting into the “worship music” or “Christian music” categories?
I tend to blur those lines. For me, it’s about music and the people who create it. Musicians who are authentic sing about what holds significance in their lives. For me, that’s Jesus and his narrative. That’s what fuels my songwriting. Perhaps it’s a bit of an unconventional view, but I find the labels “Christian” or “worship” to be somewhat limiting when describing music itself. They’re better suited, I think, to describe the people involved, or at least, they should be.
What about the sonic landscape of the album? How would you describe its sound?
It definitely leans into a roots-rock vibe. I’m drawn to the textures of older music. A lot of contemporary music doesn’t resonate with me as much. In the studio, we aimed for a sound reminiscent of those classic albums I love – think early Springsteen or Dylan. Springsteen was a major touchstone for this album. I was also immersed in the “new folk” movement a few years back, artists like Ryan Adams and Conor Oberst. There’s even a thread of 80s new wave influence in there. Our guitarist is a big fan of early U2, which subtly weaves its way in.
Have you ever served in a church worship leadership role?
Yes, and it’s still a significant part of what I do. Leading worship is something I’m deeply involved in. We lean towards original material or reimagined hymns rather than covers. Hymns hold a special place for me. I’m part of a local church here – one that my father and I started recently. We’ve intentionally kept it low-profile, no marketing or promotion. The aim isn’t to draw people because it’s “John Mark’s church,” but to create a genuine community where people can connect and grow together. I lead worship there, and we write songs specifically for that community. It’s a very rewarding experience.
“How He Loves,” a song you penned, has become incredibly popular. Is it surreal to know that a song you wrote is sung in churches globally every week?
It’s profoundly surreal. Incredibly humbling and amazing, but yes, very weird. When I wrote it, I had no grand plan for it. I felt quite removed from the wider worship music scene and didn’t anticipate its widespread appeal. I actually wrote it about eight years prior to its wider recognition. I even played it for some record labels back then, and the feedback was, “This will never be a single.” And I understood why. So, its subsequent journey has been quite unexpected, especially after all this time. We even stopped including it in our set for a while. Then Kim Walker recorded her version on the West Coast, and suddenly people were requesting it again, so we reintroduced it. Then we took it out again, and when David Crowder covered it, we brought it back once more. It’s not that we dislike playing it; it just naturally rotated out of our setlist. But now, with such enthusiasm around it, we are happy to share it again.
Is it true that “How He Loves” was written the morning after your friend Stephen’s passing?
Yes, I was in Jacksonville for a recording session. They were in the accident the night before, and we received news that they were hospitalized. The full extent of the tragedy wasn’t clear until late that night. I stayed up most of the night, and woke up the next morning feeling completely adrift. We were essentially stranded in a house in Jacksonville. You’re just not prepared for those kinds of moments. So, I was just sitting there, picked up my guitar and journal. I came across some lines I had written previously that felt incredibly relevant to what I was experiencing. I started singing around them, and the song essentially emerged from that space.
The song holds multiple layers of meaning for me. I believe a song can resonate on different levels, so when I wrote it, I wasn’t entirely sure of its full meaning. It evokes this image of someone encountering Jesus. In my mind, it could have been Stephen meeting Jesus, or it could have been a reflection of my own encounter.
Why do you think “How He Loves” has connected so deeply with so many? It’s such a personal song, yet it has become a vehicle for worship for countless people.
I believe the song’s resonance lies in its tone. It has offered people a space for a different kind of conversation in worship, one they might not have had before. The song doesn’t project a superficial, overly cheerful sentiment. It was born out of grief, out of the loss of my friend, and it became a source of healing for me. I think it’s given others permission to engage with those more complex emotions within worship. It’s almost as if the song says, it’s okay not to be okay all the time in the presence of God. Pretending that everything is perfect doesn’t truly honor God. That’s the profound beauty of Jesus that’s often missed. Yes, he died for our sins, but equally important is that he fully experienced human existence. He understands loss, pain, and the full spectrum of human emotion. He intimately knows the challenges of human life. That, for me, is what makes Jesus’ divinity so beautiful. His understanding is not distant or theoretical; it’s deeply personal and experiential. When he speaks, it’s not from some detached, lofty place, but from the perspective of someone who profoundly understands the difficulties of being human. I’m often surprised that this aspect of Jesus isn’t celebrated more. He was fully human and fully God. People often fall into a dualistic way of thinking, separating “holy” from “impure.” But the reality is, Jesus entered into the messiness of our world. He was born into poverty, laid in a manger, surrounded by animals – a far cry from a sanitized, comfortable beginning.
The “sloppy wet kiss” lyric in “How He Loves” is quite striking and gets to this raw, unfiltered idea. David Crowder famously altered that lyric in his cover, feeling it might be too much for some worship audiences. What are your thoughts on the reaction to this particular line, which some might call the “kiss song” element?
I think there are primarily two points of discomfort with that line. The main one is that it makes people uneasy. The idea that God would do anything “sloppy” seems to trouble some. But when I read the Bible, I struggle to see why that would be so jarring. God’s interactions with humanity are rarely neat and tidy in our human understanding. They are often uncomfortable, disruptive, and not easily categorized. The other issue is the potential for sexual connotation when taken out of context. When I wrote it, that was never my intention. I envisioned it more like a playful, unrestrained affection – like Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd, or the powerful, messy meeting of ocean waves and the shore. They collide, connect, and it’s not always pretty, but it’s real. I understand people can be squeamish, and outside of a church context, that line might not raise an eyebrow. But I believe God exists both inside and outside the walls of a church. If worship is confined to church activities, then it’s missing a crucial dimension. We bring our whole selves into worship – the good, the bad, and the messy – and that’s not only okay; it’s essential.
John Mark McMillan performing, capturing the raw emotion of his music
Do you think worship music within evangelical culture is sometimes too narrowly defined? Is there a way we could broaden our understanding of worship?
Absolutely, I believe it is too narrowly conceived. Interestingly, I’m realizing now that my understanding of the broader church might have been less accurate than I thought. I performed “How He Loves” for years without significant pushback about the “sloppy wet kiss” line, and now it’s become this major point of debate. One of the challenges is this “worship of correctness” that seems to have emerged. The precise wording sometimes overshadows the heart and sincerity of the worshipper. Of course, I don’t want to lead people astray theologically, but if you look at the Psalms, you see David expressing raw anger and questioning God, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Jesus himself quotes this psalm on the cross. Imagine if I started a church conference with a song titled “Why Have You Forsaken Me?” It might be considered tooReal or too negative for some.
There’s this tendency to equate tradition with godliness, which I find problematic. I appreciate tradition, but the issue arises when tradition is elevated to the same level as godliness itself. People might argue, “Worship songs need to be simple.” But where in Scripture does it mandate simplicity? Many traditional hymns are far from simple. These rigid mindsets are frustrating. I think a lot of it stems from a desire to please everyone and maintain the status quo. I don’t want to sound overly critical, because having helped my dad plant churches, I understand the delicate balance. The church is built on relationships with people, and alienating them can hinder connection and growth. My aim is to help people grow, to offer stepping stones and bridges to new perspectives.
People often unknowingly create associations between certain sounds and words and label them “worship,” which is not inherently true. They are just sounds and words. My dad, for instance, used to listen to Jimi Hendrix in his youth, but now struggles to listen to it because it evokes memories of that period in his life. For me, I listen to Hendrix and appreciate the guitar artistry. My dad hears it and it takes him back to a time he prefers to leave behind. So, I’m trying to foster new associations – not just through new songs, but by expanding the very definition of what worship can be.
Should worship songwriters prioritize writing from a deeply personal place, rather than immediately aiming for universal appeal?
My songwriting process almost always begins from a personal space. I’m not a particularly analytical writer, at least in the initial stages of creation. I’m driven by the need to express an emotion or a feeling. I don’t consciously ask myself, “Is this a song that people will sing in worship?” at that point. For me, songwriting is intrinsic. I would write songs even if it wasn’t my profession, simply because it’s something I’m compelled to do.
Do you have reservations about making a living from worship music? Do you think worship should be commercialized, or exist as an industry?
Firstly, worship becomes an industry because it holds immense value for people. Whenever something is valued, it naturally attracts economic exchange. Everything we do requires resources. Things we deem important tend to draw resources. For example, top athletes are highly compensated because their skills are highly valued in our society. The challenge arises when the resources meant to facilitate service become the primary objective. It’s like building a machine to serve others, but then becoming enslaved to maintaining that machine just to keep it running.
Is it inherently wrong to earn a living through worship music? From a biblical perspective, I believe the answer is no. Paul states that ministers deserve to earn a living by preaching the gospel. He uses the analogy of an ox being allowed to eat grain while plowing – not because preaching is about financial gain, but because ministers need resources to provide for their families. There’s a perception that there’s vast wealth in this industry, but many artists in my field don’t make the kind of money people imagine. When I recorded my album, my family was on Medicare; government assistance helped cover our child’s healthcare costs because we were financially strained. We saved and sacrificed to make that album, driven by the desire to create, not by financial incentives beyond simply breaking even. So, I believe it’s acceptable for individuals to earn a living in this field. They aren’t being paid to worship; they are compensated for serving worshippers. They are being paid for a service, and that, in my view, is perfectly legitimate.
